Good and Bad Side of the GOP

Shaun Kenney has a well thought out post up on the Waldo/ODBA standoff.

It's important to remember this entire situation started because of Virgil Goode's statement.  I took a look around today to see what people were saying about this, and I was shocked to find this statement by Alton Foley on his blog:

"I just read that myself Rose.

Actually a half empty box of Frosty Flakes is much more valuable to me. I can at least eat the Frosty Flakes, all I can do with the Koran is piss on it."

Absolutely shocking that anyone would say something like this.  Deplorable.

It will be hard to ever take Alton seriously again. 

Comments

[MC]

Perhaps I'm too squishy from my years in graduate school, I don't know. But i just can't for the life of me understand how any of this helps? Going back the Dog/Waldo and now this. I mean, its his blog and he can say whatever he wants. We have ALL said pretty outrageous stuff on our own sites, stuff we have even regretted. I remember, in the heat of it, comparing Jim Webb's books to Mark Foley. That was dumbass and I deleted it. Maybe of everyone takes a step back and re-read everything everyone has written, we might rethink what we write.

I tend to understand what Virgil Goode was stammering around to say, but jeez. With friends like these . . .

And I'm a big Alton fan, but I don't see how this helps.

I think its funny when NLS pretends he's shocked over any blog post regardless of the content. Don't get me wrong I love this site just for the sheer entertainment it provides sometimes but I do see very little difference between posting an email about someones "personal life and their supposed divorce" and talking about the Koran in this way. Its all about freedom of speech and this site should be the last to critize anyone for "deplorable" tactics since we have seen our fair share over here just in the past week.

That being said, I think this whole controversy is just plain silly. Its Waldo's creation, let him do with it what he wants.

What a bunch of crap that is. I'd like to piss on him instead.

[MC]

thats just as good, anon. way to pick up the tone of the debate

[Anon]

So, is he still a "silver blog"?

at least the GOP is getting a chance to show its true colors. with these jackass bigots as their standard-bearers, they're doomed to permanent minority status in american politics, and rightly so.

Muslim fanatics and Christian fanatics, what a great combination.

I find it pretty reprehensible that a man who ponificates on politics would say something like this.

Alton Foley's comment "Actually a half empty box of Frosty Flakes is much more valuable to me. I can at least eat the Frosty Flakes, all I can do with the Koran is piss on it." - has nothing to do with immigration reform or singling out any sort of terrorist fanatic.

It has everything to do with massively insulting an entire class of people. It is bigotry plain and simple.

I am trying to imagine the the interesting conversations that must take place in that household.

I wonder how he feels about the Torah. Hispanics. Who's next on his hit list?

This really may be the worst comment by any mainstream Virginia political blogger written that I have seen.

The comment seems to be written so casually, so in the flow of his natural conservation that there is no mistaking that this guy really lives it.

Alton Foley appears to be a true example of someone who is actually a bigot. We all know there are people like this are out there, but we so rarely see this stuff written in such a matter of fact way.

[Not Kilo]

I hope some of the right wing bloggers will say something about this.

[Rowhey]

This whole thing is starting get out of hand. It reminds me of Northern Ireland a few years ago. One side takes out the other side's guy...and retaliation results. It goes on and on....

When is it going to stop?

Rowhey - No one knows when "it" is going to "stop" but this is more than "getting out of hand."

This is Alton Foley, the self-appointed political critic of Southside Virginia denigrating all people of the Muslim faith, not just the few extremists.

Alton cannot "stop" because he believes this. He believes that Korans, for him, are only for pissing on. We must look elsewhere.

[Rowhey]

To anon. at 5:05pm:

No, I think the subject of this thread is part of a larger pattern that is very clear to most. It start with the whole Waldo/GGD saga and continued with JC Wilmore's outing of a minor.

Now, in response, it appears that NLS is onto something else in an effect to change the story line.

Alton Foley is a good man. And, I think the people here who know him trust that in time that he will come forward to speak his mind on this subject.

I, for one, am not going to sit here and let chicken shit anon. posters call a man a bigot and other names without calling bullshit on them.

Was Alton one of the people who was upset about the "Jew-baiting" in the last election?

His remark is ridiculous. There are good and bad people to be found in every single demographic on this planet. There are Christians who are among the world's loveliest people, there are Christians who believe that Jesus wanted them to spread His message through the denigration and humiliation of others. There are Muslims who are wonderful and lovely people, there are Muslims who are suicide bombers. There are Americans who are lovely, lovely people, there are Americans who do messed up crap like blowing up buildings (*cough* Oklahoma City Federal Building) or beating up others for being a minority (Harvey Milk, slavery, segregation, the Trail of Tears, Japanese internment camps...)

Way to build those bridges of peace with the Muslims who come to this country fleeing that which we are fighting, in hopes of a better life in America or the Muslims who were born in this country and are American through and through.

Rowhey,

Alton Foley's comment about the Koran being only good for being pissed on has nothing to do with anything other than a blogger insulting every single person of the Muslim faith.

Who cares about a blogger spat between Waldo and some anonymous muckraker like Dog (I guess his sort of anonymity is ok with you).

This is not a subject change, it is about holding people accountable when they cross the line. When Mel Gibson or Kramer cross that line, he is held accountable by various media outlets and advocacy groups.

When a Virginia political blogger crosses the line, the only place to hold him accountable is the Virginia political blogosphere.

anon 5:05pm - signing off

[Rowhey]

Anon. at 5:05:

What I have a major problem with is that certain bloggers seem to think that "outing" is an appropriate tactic.

To me, this "outing" practice appears akin to harassment and intimidation in the attempt to kept the outed blogger from publishing his/her thoughts.

[I'm Not Emeril]

You are right. It was terribly insulting wasn't it.

Hold me accountable. Off with my head.

I don't know who Alton Foley is, but he sure does come across as a low-life.

I have read this read and am ready to pronounce judgements:

1) Thanks NLS. I have bashed you when you deserved it and here you deserve praise for bringing this comment to light. As they say, "sunlight is the best disenfectant."

2) Can you imagine if any person running for office wrote what Mr. Foley did? Their future would be over in a nano-second. And rightly so.

3) It is sad in a way. Alton goes from curmudgeonly old blogger to bigot. If I were a blogger, it would make me feel like there's a death in the family. Sure, Alton will post, but it won't be the same. Everything he writes from now on will be tainted. Every time he pokes his head into a blogger convention, everyone will think - this is guy who thinks Korans are only useful to as receptacles for his urine.

4) I am glad I am not a Muslim (or any other racial/religious minority) in Mr. Foley's world.

[Not Jack Herrity]

Okay, here is the score so far for the week after Christmas:

1. Waldo had to yank incredibly gruesome photos posted by an alleged adult who should have known better. They were despicable and had no value except to shock and sicken unsuspecting readers.

2. JC showed he is a coward and a bully who picks on 16-year-olds, publicly "outs" them because they have the guts to offend him, and then smears them by accusing them of nonexistent felonies.

3. Alton Foley irreversibly demonstrates that he is a racist who has no problem insulting the religion of an entire group of people.

Way to grab the holiday spirit, folks. If you need me, I'll be hiding behind the manger until the shooting dies down.

NJH

[Alton Foley is an Ass]

Rowhey - you should let Alton speak for himself about being bashed by anonymous bloggers. I'm guessing he doesn't have a problem with it since he spent the past several months posting libelous statements about Al Weed on his "Wilting Weed" blog.

Then again, he's already demonstrated that he doesn't have enough integrity to be concerned with hypocrisy. I'd be offended by his statements if 1) he had proven himself worthy of having his opinion highly regarded or 2) he would take his nose far enough out of Virgil's ass to get an opinion of his own.

[t]

"To: Friends and Supporters

From: Gary L. Bauer, Chairman
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Date: Thursday, December 28, 2006

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NLS - please remove this crap from t. He is a man who needs help.

[t]

Yes, t does need help. t needs help in organizing a "Draft Bauer (Gary not Jack) for President in '08. Bauer (Gary not Jack) has firmly stood tall for pro-life principles. He is a Statesman and a visionary.

Dear t,

Since you are posting oin this thread tonight. I wonder if could let us know how you feel about Mr. Foley's comments about pissing on Korans.

[t]

I choose to fill my mind with thoughts of pro-life and Christianity. I am increasingly concerned that it is "en vogue" to trash Christians. Why is it that bigots find such pleasure in besmirching followers of Christ?

[Matt (not the usual one)]

Dude. The guy mentioned about pissing on the Koran. And you say 'besmirching followers of Christ'?????

I know you are crazy, but seriously - you think that was an appropriate statement for anyone (liberal, hippie, tree-hugger, pro-life, anti life, evangelical whatever) to make?

[Matt (not the usual one)]

BTW, if the koran incites decapitation (as evidenced by some current incidents) I am sure that using the same line of thought Alton will assume that the bible also incites decapitation (refer: middle age crusades) or lynching and hanging black people (refer: not to distant past USA) and drawing and quartering (refer: white christian europe 200 years back) or, once again decapitation (refer: catholic France where the guillotines had to be invented because there were too many people to be beheaded) or (refer: any history from any castle in europe where kings and princes were frequently beheaded for no reason at all).

So given the above, I am hoping that he will go shit on the bible today, given that it has made christians do such things. Once again, that is something I would NEVER do to any religious book (or any book for that matter) but if he is an honest and fair man, I am guessing he will do that.

Also, I am sick of comments like "the Goode I know is not a bigot." Bigots do not have any special tattoos plastered across their heads. Many top funtionaries of the Nazi party were actually loving fathers and doting husbands and religious men as well, who had very good friends and were honest and upright in life.

A bigot doesnt look any different from a normal person. And it doesnt always go around with a sword in hand and neither is it a social outcasts.

Bigots are are very much normal people otherwise and even respectable members of society (as were the millions of Americans who kept the institution of slavery alive for hundreds of years). Family life and having friends in not a negation of bigotry.

[t]

Matt, if you actually READ the Bible, and lived by its precepts, rather than trash-talked it, I suspect you would not be the sad, hurting individual that your words exemplify.

[t]

Bigotry against Christians is a reality today. To fight against the bigotry, go to this site:

http://www.aclj.org/

[I.Publius]

NLS, sometimes you say really stupid things. This is one of those times.

[Matt (not the usual one)]

t

I know trying to drill sense into you is futile but I DID NOT trash talk to bible (I have no idea how you came to that conclusion).

Instead this whole thread is about someone else trash talking another religious book, which most probably neither of us over here is read.

I am a hurting individual when someone else (seemingly a bible loving buddy of yours) says that the best thing he can do to a religious scripture devoutly followed by billions across the world is piss on it?

[Matt (not the usual one)]

I. Publius,

You say NLS said stupid things, by which I think you mean saying that you can only piss on a holy book of a few billion others is a wise thing? And saying so is discrimination?

Btw, the definition of bigotry is "stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own"

Now lets see. If someone refuses to let anyone take oath by any book other than his own religion's, says the other religion's book is only worth pissing on, makes a blanket statement saying that the book only inspires decapitation (failing to isolate the acts of individuals from what a religion says given that even this religion, christianity, had had a looong history of barbarism) and then calls every member of that religion a terrorist - is that no demonstration of the exact definition of bigotry?

[I.Publius]

Read the definition again, and pay attention to the word "any" in the definition.

A person can subscribe to a particular belief and completely and utterly reject one or more other beliefs without being a bigot. I am personally a Christian, and am "stubbornly intolerant" of *certain* non-Christians. I am not intolerant of Jews or Muslims. I am intolerant of Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. I am intolerant of extremist Christians and Muslims who resort to violence to further their goals (though far, far more concerned about the latter, as evidence is overwhelming that there are far more of them, and they run several governments).

According to the way you want to define bigotry, virtually everyone with a strong opinion on anything is a bigot, since there will necessarily be many people with the opposite, irreconciliable belief.

"If someone refuses to let anyone take oath by any book other than his own religion's"

Who is *refusing* to allow someone to take an oath on the book of their choice? Last time I checked, voicing an opinion on what is good or bad, desirable or undesirable, is vastly different from prior restraint. Or do you not understand this?

[Matt (not the usual one)]

The definition btw was not mine, it was picked from a dictionary.

The problem is that as you say, it isnt just stopping at 'voicing opinion.' The person who started this 'voicing opinion' part is a legislator and has forwarded actions (stopping muslim immigration etc) to convert his 'opinion' into actions. That is bigotry. And supporting such 'action' is also bigotry.

Its like, you may dislike gays totally. Great. But when you start trying to pass laws preventing them from living in the same place as they do, start denying them the same rights that you have, that is taking things one step ahead.

I dont know if you subscribe to this, but belief in something is not the same thing as hatred of something else.

One can be a devout christian without hating any other religion. One can love the bible without pissing on the koran. One can swear on the bible without caring about what someone else was swearing on.

The key word to bigotry is hatred of something else. Go back to the definition, is say 'stubborn and complete intolerance' of others, not stubborn belief in something.

"According to the way you want to define bigotry, virtually everyone with a strong opinion on anything is a bigot, since there will necessarily be many people with the opposite, irreconciliable belief. "

Yes, there will be people with the opposite view. However, my views do not need to be based on the opposition to or hatred of some other view. They can be independent.

I dont know if the above gets to you. The key word is hatred.

And if you still believe that someone who says he has nothing better to piss on on religion's book, simply because that book was used instead of that person's OWN holy book, is not a bigot - I think there is not point of arguing any further.

It is indeed sad that your entire group is closing ranks around a clearly inappropriate and spiteful statement. Even you know there is not explanation for it except for that this person simply has immense hatred for that book without any justifiable reasons.

And then there are people like myron who say 'ellison does not have any respect for holy scriptures'. I think such people should get out of their backland redneck ghetto and realize that more the bible is probably the holy scripture for less than 1/4 of humanity and there are other religions out there. Are they bigotted? Oh yes totally, especially when they talk of how they will take forward their christian agenda.

[AndreaC]

Ahh, discrimination against Christians. If only we could wear a symbol of our religion, say on a chain around our next. If only our elected leaders could practice it openly, say, 43 of 43 presidents...

I stole that from an old Jon Stewart episode.

To suggest that Christians in the US are discriminated against when others around the world actually have to sacrifice jobs, freedom, and lives for their beliefs is insulting to those who actually have to sacrifice more than a few hours a year for services. What SOME Christians are experiencing is scorn for their santimonious hypocricy and unwillingness to display the Christian virtues they narrowly define and demand of others.

[t]

How utterly un-ladylike Andrea. Boyfriend problems?

[I.Publius]

Matt,

To be a Christian -- and I mean an actual believer, not somebody who goes to Christmas Eve service with Grandma because he has to, and calls himself a Christian because his mommy has always told him that's what he is -- to be a Christian, one must *necessarily* believe that every other religion has it wrong. This is not hatred, though you might wish to label it as such.

If you don't think that the other religions are wrong, then you're not a Christian. There's simply no getting around that. That's not bigotry, by the way.

And if you want to talk about which world religion fosters intolerance, it's not even worth debating. Christian leaders condemn violence; Muslim leaders encourage and embrace it.

[AndreaC]

I.Publius, once again you display the loser's strategy: if you can't win your argument, change the subject. The truth is, Christians in America are the biggest whiners about discrimination, when the biggest sacrifice they make most of the time is a few hours a month and a few dollars in the collections plate. You say nothing to contest that.

As to bigotry, believing you are correct is not what makes you a bigot. What makes you a bigot is lumping the beliefs of those who would do harm with those of others you do not try to understand, and treating all those beliefs as unworthy of respect. Jesus would be ashamed, and he said so when he had the chance.

BTW, not all Christian leaders condemn violence. Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell said you deserved 9-11, remember? And where are the religious leaders condemning torture of innocents in Guantanamo and Abu Gharib? A German, a Canadian, and an American have been released as innocent from those Godless places, and that's just what made the news. I don't hear enough outrage on how they were treated. Would Jesus be proud of how much you have done on their behalf?

[Matt (not the usual one)]

"to be a Christian, one must *necessarily* believe that every other religion has it wrong."

"Christian leaders condemn violence; Muslim leaders encourage and embrace it."

Excellent example of bigotry.

1) Religion is not math. The fundamental concepts it deals with cannot be explained as right or wrong. And the very fact that you think for you to be a christian every other religion has to be wrong is in itself crazy, I dont know what kind of denomination taught you that. And now I understand how people like you are out to destroy the beloved constitution of this country. If christianity is the basis of your existence, please go and live in the vatican. I dont think given the principles set by the founding fathers, this country is anything you want to live with.

2) The second blanket statement shows the extent of bigotry.

I have asked this of fundamentalists like you before and never received an answer - how do you so unbashedly paint all members of a religion with the same brush?

Do you forget that slobodan milosevic and the sebian army was comprised of christians carrying out mass murders of muslims? or do you also forget that jews were slaughtered by nazis who happened to be christians? middle aged crusades, slavery, colonial attrocities, apartheid - all christian.

Now you will say, just because someone claims to be christian, he is not. But everyone who is even touched by the remoted brush of islam is a hopeless violent muslim terrorist.

See, that bigotry.

[I.Publius]

No, Matt, religion is not math. But the two aren't as dissimilar as you might think. Both are about getting at the truth.

Presumably you believe that 2+2=4. You don't just believe it because it's right for you; you think it's *true* in an absolute sense.

Well, religion is also about truth. I believe certain things are *true* about God, about Jesus, about the world He created. I don't just think they're fine and dandy for me, but whatever you believe is ok for you. That's squishy religion, and a bunch of b.s. If it's true, then it's true.

Therefore, since being a Christian means believing that certain things are true, it also means that if somebody *doesn't* believe those things, then they must not accept what is true (i.e., they're wrong).

Now, I don't go around beating people over the head with a bible if they're wrong about what's in it. Unlike 2+2, I can't prove what is true about God to your satisfaction, so what's the point in berating you about it.

I am very tolerant of many other religious groups because of how they (as a group) treat the rest of the world. I am intolerant of certain religious groups because of how THEY treat the rest of the world. As a whole, Islam is incredibly intolerant of the non-Islamic world, and would very much like to see non-Muslims eradicated. (Torquemada comes to mind -- yes, he was a Christian, but that was in the 15th century, and there wasn't much tolerance for anyone, anywhere in the 15th century).

Yes, there have been Christian butchers in the world. Can you seriously say that either Hitler or Milosovic were representative of their faith? Were they a good example of mainstream Christianity? Joe in Paducah or Maria in Buenos Aries, or Pierre in Paris -- they didn't cheer either of those guys, did they? Take your average Achmed in Syria or Egypt or Saudi Arabia or Indonesia or Iran -- ol' Achmed is jumping up and down in the street with his buddies every time his cousin blows up a disco in Tel Aviv.

When was the last time that Islamic leaders in Islamic countries publicly condemned Hezbollah, or Al-Qaeda, or the Taliban? Hmmmm?

[I.Publius]

Matt? Matt? Bueller? Bueller? Anyone?

;-)

(Can't say that I blame you, really).

[AndreaC]

Okay, don't think we gave up. We just got bored by someone who claims to be "right." Jesus warned that the "publicly religious" are almost never right. He cautioned them not to label the person who disagrees with the "religious right" a fool.

"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ´Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.´ But I tell you … anyone who says, `You fool!´ will be in danger of the fire of hell."

"For if you love only those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even the tax collectors do that!"

http://www.raisingkaine.com/showComment.do?commentId=42608

So go forth and hate. We can't stop you. It's a shame you project your fear on others. Your loss.

[thegools]

Foley reeps what he sows.

"but bless his heart."