CLOTURE VOTE ON AMNESTY FAILS

53-46.. waiting to hear how Jim Webb and John Warner voted.

Update:  WARNER AND WEBB VOTED NO.

Comments

Down in flames.

God Bless America!!!!

[Doug]

Ok, now those who lambasted Webb can apologize. Can our President now go and enforce the laws that already exist?

[Matt]

I'm glad they did, it was an awful bill, and they were like...we'll just vote on it, and then if it has problems will fix it afterwords...what the crap? That's the worst logic I've heard in a long time. Almost as bad as," we're fighting them there, so they won't follow us home,". Follow us HOME!!!! With what? Will they fly over here on the broken dreams we have given them?

[Sam]

Enforce the laws that already exist? fine on the border, but how do YOU propose we round up 12 million people?

this is a sad day for immigration in America... the status quo continues

[Doug]

Sam- what I've said before- go after those employing illegal immigrants. I have to abide by the rules. I do all the i-9 stuff to prove my employees are legal, but everyone knows there is a huge blind eye turned to employers who do not. Prosecute them.

[Sam]

Many illegals are self-employed, or work through day labor where they're paid directly without ever being employed... they also often work on contracts. You do this, you'll catch maybe 10% of them, if you're lucky.

Not to mention we've become dependent on the taxes they pay (which estimates show somewhere around 90-95% pay taxes)

[Sam]

Not to mention that it's so easy to get fake documentation to make yourself seem like a legal resident it's not even funny

[asmith]

Way to go Webb and Warner.

The President doesn't want to enforce the laws, he just wants to act like he's enforcing the laws. I lived in Texas when he was Governor. He was for open borders back then.

[David]

Thank you mr. Webb and mr. Warner. I didn't vote for Mr. Webb. However, I am quite grateful.

[A Voter]

I'm starting to like Webb more and more. First he voted to support the war and now this. He's becoming a lot better than I thought he'd be.

Kudos all around!

[George Templeton]

Webb did what he said he was going to do on this issue. He tried to make a terrible bill better and then voted against it when his efforts failed. Far too few politicians do that. Thank you very much Sen. Webb and thank you Sen. Warner for doing the right thing as well.

[Spank That Donkey]

Webb, was four years evading the law to a citizen? The residents of SWVA ought to jeer the man..

He didn't run on that from what I remember...

[Doug]

Sam- sorry, I'm liberal as they come, but WTF?

"Many illegals are self-employed, or work through day labor where they're paid directly without ever being employed... "

That's illegal. It is not legal as a contractor for me to pay someone cash. Why should my competition be able to? And, sorry, I probably agree with you on a lot of things, but 90-95% tax payment? That does not jibe with being paid in cash, so that sounds to me like a number you just pulled out of.. well..

[Rowhey]

Time to finish the wall.

[Sam]

Where did I say paid in cash? Contractors are still paid through typical means, but there's not always a requirement of proving citizenship (I know I never did when I was doing contract work last year). However, they're also sent 1099's which inform them of their taxes (unless you're working on contract for someone not worth working on contract for), and pretty much all illegals except the felons tend to pay those taxes. Additionally, they pay state sales taxes all the time when they're shopping.

Moreover, shutting down their ability to gain employment is dangerous. THAT is when they'll really be pushed into the shadows, begging off other people, offering to do work they probably shouldn't be doing, but getting people to pay them in cash for it cause they'll do it REAL cheap. That's very illegal, yes, but almost unenforcable to prevent. Are we going to go to every house and ask, "Who cleaned your house, did you check their citizenship, did you pay them in cash, and what did you pay them?" They will still find a way, they'll just be pushed in the shadows, there life here will STILL be better than in their own country, and now we've got an even worse problem.

[Sam]

Doug - Ok, I think I see where you got that I was saying paid in cash. When I said "paid directly" I just meant not through an employer, just a check or whatnot paid directly to them, as contractors often receive. I recognize "paid directly" is often used as a euphemism for "in cash, under the table," so I apologize for the poor choice of words.

[Matt]

I think we should companies that hire illegal aliens before we build a wall, a physical barrier can only do so much. Believe me, if they have to, they'll start parachuting them in. The companies that hire these workers, and then depress the wages of the American worker, are the ones who deserve most of our ire.

[novamiddleman]

So how do you guys feel about the day-labor sites.

How is the government going to arrest itself for supporting hiring of illegals by using tax funded dollars to support the sites.

[Sam]

novamiddleman - complete misnomer... while many illegals use day labor sites, an overwhelming majority of day laborers are either citizens or here legally. I think we should be glad the government provides an opportunity to more citizens and legal aliens to get jobs, and I think we should have more of the sites.

[Doug]

Yep- what Matt said. I think Rowhey meant to say "mall" or "wal-mart" but I could be wrong.

Quoting Reagan "Mr. Fox, Build up this wall!" Wait, I think that sounds wrong.

Sam- yes, I assumed. I shouldn't do that. I see what you are saying, but I don't buy the premise. I think you can go after those who pay undocumented workers. Can they fake ID? Sure. Do people have people come in and do domestic services without checking? Yes. Still doesn't make it legal. When I can afford something done to my house, I hire someone with an actual company behind them so the legal burden of taxes and legal citizenship is on them.

But suggesting some laws just shouldn't be enforced or that they are too hard to be enforced completely obliterates the usefulness of a bill like this anyway. Make people pay $3,000 for z-visas or whatever the hell- what do you think they will do? Not pay. Why should they if we never enforce the laws?

[Rowhey]

Doug,
I meant to say "wall." And, I will be the first to volunteer your ass to stand post on said wall.

[Doug]

Rowhey- we are both far too removed from military pasts for that. I will stand post at the mall though.

[Sam]

Doug - If they don't pay they don't get the Z visa, and they have no path to citizenship

[Rowhey]

Well, I figure that you've got enough practice standing around looking foolish that you wouldn't mind a change of scenery.

[Sam]

Additionally, I'm not saying don't enforce the laws, I'm saying our lack of enforcement has been so bad that we can't anymore. It's like a restart, let this by, but also work to make sure this doesn't happen again. Don't get me wrong, I think we need a wall on the border, a massively enlarged border security movement and all of that... but we also need to be realistic about the 12 million already here.

[Ghost of A.L. Philpott]

We're going to need a better solution than just a wall. The wall, in all its illustriousness, took a great blow with the invention of the catapult.

[Doug]

Hey now Row, why we getting personal? Did someone kick you off another board this morning or something? Pee in your wheaties?

I was being nice and I even quoted St. Reagan for you.

[Rowhey]

Doug,
Actually, I'd like to get kicked off a board. I'm over-extended with time.

I'm just messing w/ ya. Lol. Been awhile since I've taken my jabs at you.

Thanks for paying compliments on the Gipper. It's good to know that he is remembered.

When was the last time anyone pulled out anything memorable said by Jimmy "I would have drowned at Chappaquidick" Carter?

A.L. -- The wall is only part of a multi-part problem. It needs to be built in order to control numbers now. It is a national security issue.

[Joe]

Delighted to note that neither of you flipped your vote!

Thanks,

Joe

[Doug]

Jimmy did say all that stuff about killer rabbits and Monty Python.

[Rowhey]

Ah, yes, the killer rabbit story. See pic and story here:http://www.narsil.org/politics/carter/killer_rabbit.html

What a dork!

I've been huntion and fishing for years. Never heard anything close to that story. Not even my beer drinking buddies to spin a yarn that good.

Here he is in action:http://www.narsil.org/politics/carter/killer_rabbit.html#photo

The picture speaks for itself.

[Doug]

Thanks Rowhey- that's the Jimmy I remember and love.

[A Voter]

Sam- re: your 1:18 comment, you said, "an overwhelming majority of day laborers are either citizens or here legally."

Where did you get this from? Reston Interfaith, a pro-illegal group, surveyed day laborers in Herndon and had a vast MAJORITY of which who VOLUNTEERED that they were illegal.

[Not Wayne Rooney]

Building a wall to stop immigration is a great irony when you think about it. You will need people to work who will not mind putting in long hours, under terrible working conditions, for low pay. Only one group in our society can be counted on to meet that criteria - illegal immigrants.

If you think the Minutemen are going to do that work you really have your head up your ass.

[Sam]

A Voter - That may be true in Herndon, I don't know, but there are Day Labor centers all over America and one is not representative, but when you get out of wealthy areas (e.g. Northern Virginia) you immediately find most people at the centers are not illegal immigrants... hell, I've seen some where the majority are actually white

[A Voter]

Sam, where are you getting this from? Did Dionne Warwick’s psychic friends tell you that most of the day laborers are legal citizens? Was it revealed to you in a vision? How have you come to this conclusion?

I can say that a majority of all day laborers are actually penguins in disguise. Without any proof of this being the case it's just opinion at best, or at worst it’s lie intended to change the discussion to fit an agenda.

If you have proof of your claim that a majority of all day laborers are legal citizens, I'd love to hear it.

[Jimmy Carter]

Our American values are not luxuries but necessities, not the salt in our bread, but the bread itself. Our common vision of a free and just society is our greatest source of cohesion at home and strength abroad, greater than the bounty of our material blessings.

[Sam]

Most of what I wrote is just from personal experience, but The National Day Labor Survey is where I'm getting my data from. I should note there's a difference between the generic "Day Labor" site (what most people probably visualize... a bunch of guys just standing around by the side of the road waiting for someone to come up to offer them a job) and the official, government-funded ones.

Amongst the official government funded ones, about 15% are citizens, and about 50% are legal aliens, a very solid majority, and those are the sites you were complaining about our government funding. To me, 35% of the people being illegal aliens is a small price to pay for giving so many legal residents and citizens a shot at employment to support their family that they may not have otherwise.

That being said, it should be noted that a majority of day labor sites in America are NOT government sponsored, funded and created, and yes, there over 75% are illegal aliens, however, these are not the sites you were complaining about initially.

[A Voter]

Your personal experiences not withstanding, I was wondering who did this survey you mentioned? Do you have a website? I simply typed in a google search for: The National Day Labor Survey

The first site that came up was a 2006 national day labor survey/study titled “On The Corner: Day Labor in the United States” that was done by UCLA and the University of Illinois at Chicago. This study was funded by The Ford Foundation, The Rockefeller Foundation, The Community Foundation for the National Capital Region’s Washington Area Partnership for Immigrants and UCLA’s Center for the Study of Urban Poverty through the dean of social sciences. Needless to say, this wasn’t a study devised with a radical neo-conservative bent to it.

Here's the link: http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/issr/csup/pubs/papers/item.php?id=31

As you discovered, the study found that, "three-quarters (75 percent) of the day-labor workforce are undocumented migrants." Translation: THEY ARE ILLEGAL!

If you scroll up, you’ll find that the issue I had was with your comment was that you said “an overwhelming majority of day laborers are either citizens or here legally.” And as you’ve already found, this is wrong.

Since 75% of the day laborers are illegal, this shows that the day labor issue is directly linked to the illegal alien issues we're dealing with here in DC area, as well as the throughout the nation.

[Sam]

A fair assessment... I was referring to those working at the sites you were complaining about (the government-funded ones) when I first spoke up, and I'll accept responsibility for not making that clear.

I too saw this study you're referring to, which you'll note used the National Day Labor Survey. I haven't found the Survey online, I have the paper copy, but the methodology of the survey is explained in the study you found. They're using the national overall number, I believe, which implies I perhaps mis-stated the percentages at the unofficial locations (since I'm guessing if the national number is 75% then the actual unofficial sites number must be higher...), I'll dig the survey up and report back on that later.

[Sam]

Ok, found it. I'll concede part of the point, but here are the numbers. 35%, as I'd stated earlier, of workers at official, government-sponsored centers are illegals. 93% are illegals at the unofficial sites, which make up 71% of day labor sites nationally, giving an overall average of 75% of day laborers nationally being illegals.

Now, you were complaining about the government paying for centers, so I'll just cover the government-funded centers. This is where I'll concede part of the point. There is a direct relationship between wealth of an area and percentage of illegals working at the centers. Once you reach above a certain wealth level in an area (and Northern Virginia, for example, is above this wealth level), every single day labor site surveyed had majorities (sometimes large majorities) being illegals. The survey advises local governments in the wealthy areas to be aware of this when deciding whether or not to set an official center up.

That being said, the reverse is also true. In fact, the survey sites a couple official centers in very poor areas around the country where the percentage of illegals is under 5%, and some where it's even 0.

So, I stand by my point that overall it's a good use of government resources, however I'll concede that in an area like ours, it is not.

[A Voter]

Sam,

Please, enlighten me as to where I was complaining about government centers above. You do understand that I am a different person than novamiddleman, right?

However, since you seem to be married to this topic, I have to say that I'm against the government-sponsored day labor sites that don't require some proof of citizenship. This is easy to provide in states like Virginia, where only legal citizens can get drivers licenses, however it is admittedly more difficult in states like Maryland, where anyone (including Joe-terrorist who is over-staying his visa) can get a license. It's just wrong to purposefully aid illegal activity in our towns, especially when it's done with our tax dollars.

[Sam]

A Voter-

Excuse me, I did, in fact, confuse you for novamiddleman. I apologize, and most of your comments make a lot more sense now...

Your point here makes sense, and I can agree the government sponsored sites should do that... but do remember it's pretty easy to get fake documents.. that being said, checking is still better than nothing, I'll agree with that.

[A Voter]

Excellent!

[novamiddleman]

hehe thats funny good discussion

and just to clarify my comment as well it was a discussion question

I think all of us end up agreeing that day labor sites aren't necessarily a bad thing (and in some areas are good) but when you are helping and abiding illegal aliens AND assisting businesses with breaking the law with taxpayer funds thats a serious problem.

[A Voter]

Yup.

[Sam]

Fair enough... I just read your original statement (novamiddleman's) as suggesting you thought the government shouldn't fund Day Labor sites at all. I'll agree that the sites should have to do at least as much as all other employers (what's that form called where you have to show the ID's? I've forgotten), since they shouldn't just knowingly allow illegals to get free work there, but I do still worry about the impact on the black market of pushing illegals away from more and more jobs, cause I don't buy that that'll keep them from coming over here.

[A Voter]

You're right, that alone won't stop them from coming here. There are many things that can be done in conjunction with this, however, which would be quite effective.

1) Build the Fence.
2) Stop all government programs from providing services to illegal immigrants. This includes schooling, and all truly non-emergency medical care. If you do receive medical care, you are also arrested for violating our severity laws by being here, and end up being deported. (This will also help to stop hospitals from going bankrupt in areas near the boarder.)
3) End the loop-hole that allows mothers to become citizens after having a child in the US.
4) Increase the corporate fines to $100,000 per illegal alien that is knowingly employed by a corporation.
5) *Most Important* - Allow illegal aliens to sue their employers for violating minimum wage laws, and exploiting them. (I got this from Ann Coulter, and can't claim credit for it.)

If all of these items are enforced you'll remove the incentives to come/stay here, and the problem will solve itself.

[Loaboleta]

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