Illegal Aliens and HB3202

Last night Delegate Bob Marshall left a very interesting comment here:

"Have your readers considered the fact that under HB 3202, the so-called "Transportation" bill, that after July 1 persons with a valid Virginia license should receive higher fines for traffic infractions than illegal aliens who say have driver's licenses from a Central or South American country, or from East Europe, or East Asia or anywhere else?

Because that is precisely what HB 3202 does. It says, Illegal Alien, you get a smaller fine than a Virginia resident with a valid driver's license.

Why the Virginia General Assembly, especially Republicans who say they want to crack down on Illegal Aliens, and the Governor wanted to treat Virginia drivers harsher than Illegal Aliens is a question I cannot answer."

What Bob is talking about is the $1,050 part of the new fines that exempts anyone who is not from Virginia.  While that is outrageous on its own- it hadn't occurred to me until Bob left this comment that would also exclude people here illegally and still residents of other countries.  So for the same crime, an illegal alien who lives on my street gets fined $1,050 less than I would... As BVBL just said this morning:  "It’s official.  Our government treats illegal aliens better than it does it’s own citizens."

This bill is stunning in its incompetence, arrogance and ineptitude.

The media needs to get on this fast.

Comments

And they get a free trip back to Guadalajara. Lucky illegal aliens!

Damnit Bob Marshall, I hate it when I agree with you.

Say what you will about his premises, but Marshall always keeps his eye on the ball and knows the ins and outs of legislation.

[Anon]

No one should ever accuse Del. Marshall of being dumb.

No, nobody should ever accuse Bob Marshall of being dumb -- just totally useless as a Delegate. First, it is totally absurd to think that one bad provision of a bill, which could easily be fixed in the upcoming session of the GA if it truly is so bad, is a basis for voting down the whole bill. Second, if Bob really had his eye on the ball, he would have brouth this up when the bill was being voted on. But, he didn't. Bob is a great one for pointing out why a problem can't be solved because, fundamentally, he does not believe government can solve any public problems. Paradoxically, he is all in favor of government trying to govern every aspect of your private life.

[Greg Kane]

This entire line of reasoning is depressing. Somehow an illegal alien hotel maintenance worker points out the injustice of this abusive law better than a blond from Ohio or a gay from San Francisco or a New Jersey pedophile or a New York gun runner or a trucker driver from Michigan.

Why? Well because it is the Republicans that have fanned the xenophobic flames more than others and they were the prime movers of this legislation. Very few people think we should have unsecured boarders. Very few people think people who break the law should get a free pass. But the red flag of “illegal alien” is also used as a wedge so sow distrust. For sure, the Republicans are masters at dividing people. As I said in an earlier post, we have come a very long way from Jefferson and Madison.

It is easy to look at a group of people and see an enemy or a lesser human being. We have done it in the past. We were legal slave holders and we discriminated against the Irish and Italians. We locked up Japanese Americans when we forgot who we were.

There are a lot of slim bags that sneak across our unsecured boarder. There are also a lot of desperate, hard working humans being that gamble on breaking ours laws. Here is one case in point:

In May, three soldiers, including Army Specialist Alex Jimenez, were captured by al-Qaeda in Iraq, and one of those soldiers turned up dead not long after. Jimenez was serving his second tour in Iraq, after returning with a Purple Heart from his first. At this point in time, we don’t know what his fate is, but the signs are not good. What we do know is that is wife entered the US illegally in 2001. The couple, married in 2004, had applied for a green card for her, and the process was underway, but was stopped by an immigration judge after he went missing

As a former U.S. Marine my inclination would be to ensure Jimenz’s family is taken care of. Surely sacrificing your life should entitle the man’s wife gets a green card.

The “abuse law” is unjust and should be overturned. We should be able to see that on its own merits without fanning flames of hatred

I understand it is extremely easy for an illegal alien to get a driver's license in North Carolina. Supposedly they don't require the same paperwork that we do in Virginia.

[Fenian]

Aw c'mon Greg Kane. Stop with the theatrics already. "We have come a long way from Madison and Jefferson." "fanning flames of hatred."

Try a little study of these two great patriots. Talk about "fanning the flames of hatred." If the proponents of 'get tough' immigration reform were able to start a violent/bloody revolution then they might come close to how well Madison/Jefferson were able to "fan the flames of hatred."

[Fenian]

"Republicans are masters at dividing people", followed up with "we have come a long way from Madison and Jefferson."

Greg Kane, you must know very little about the events leading up to the revolution and the formation of our great republic.

Madison and Jefferson were some of the ultimate masters of dividing people.
They helped "fan the flames" of revolution. In many communities at the time Toryism was the majority political belief. Yet Madison and Jefferson forced the Tories to break from the onslaught of revolutionary violence.

When those 'eeevil' contemporary republicans of today start wielding this type of power, your hyterics may have merit.

[Not Jack Herrity]

Ben, do you remember posting this?

http://notlarrysabato.typepad.com/doh/2006/01/tim_kaines_tran.html

Why weren't you so miffed about the abusive driver fees when Kaine made it part of his own plan?

NJH

Seems that the GA's and Governor's decision to impose this greater fine on only those abusive drivers who are Virginia residents may be a violation of the privileges and immunities and equal protection clauses of the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. The latter says, "No state shall ... deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." All of the abusers, Virginians or not, are, by virtue of being abusers in Virginia, "within" Virginia's jurisdiction. Virginia residents, however, are denied equal protection by being subject to a higher fine.

[Claire Gastanaga]

Okay, let's get the law and the facts straight before the spin gets too out of control.

No one can drive in Virginia without a valid driver's license unless exempt. 46.2-300

Persons who are Virginia residents with valid licenses from other states (not countries) may drive in VA for 60 days without getting a VA driver's license. 46.2-308

After that ... they are driving illegally and subject to fines for driving without a license.

Driving without a license is a class 2 misdemeanor .. a crime... not a traffic infraction.

A nonresident of Virginia from another state or foreign country may drive in Virginia with their home license. To avoid the fines/criminal penalty for driving without a license then, an undocumented person driving on his/her country's license would have to say he/she is not a resident of Virginia ... admitting their unauthorized status. Othewise, if they are Virginia residents and don't have a Virginia license (no 60 day free period for persons with foreign driver's licenses who move to VA), they are driving without a license, which is a criminal misdemeanor.

Oh, by the way, a person who is driving without a license (resident or not) is not exempt from the fees/fines in the bill.

"B. The civil remedial fees established by this section shall be assessed on any resident of Virginia operating a motor vehicle on the highways of Virginia, including persons to whom Virginia driver's licenses, commercial driver's licenses, or learner's permits have been issued pursuant to this title; and persons operating motor vehicles without licenses or whose license has been revoked or suspended."

So, bottom line here, like so much of the other anti-immigrant rhetoric being bandied about by BVBL and his cohorts, this is mostly blather without substance and is nothing more than flame fanning.

I've come to expect no less from BVBL, but I have higher expectations for my friend, Delegate Marshall, who is a smart guy who should know better.

"resident of Virginia"

And exactly how do you purport the state will PROVE that illegal aliens are residents of Virginia?

They can't and they won't.

"Driving without a license is a class 2 misdemeanor .. a crime... not a traffic infraction."

Could you please cite the code. Because I have watched dozens of foreigners with no DL walk away scot free from the courthouse while law-breaking citizens driving on a suspended get thousands in fines. The actual penalty handed out for driving on a suspended is far greater than that for no driver's license.

[Not Jack Herrity]

46.2-300. The problem is that judges can (and do) often reduce the charges.

It is also very easy for the Commonwealth to prove where a defendant lives. They do it all the time. Remember that a person's alleged status as an illegal alien is not a fact at issue in a traffic case. At the same time, part of the set of facts that has to be proved under many 46.2-300 cases is that the person is a resident of the Commonwealth.

NJH

"It is also very easy for the Commonwealth to prove where a defendant lives."

How? I've never seen them do it. All the illegal has to do is say they don't have an address and ta-da... out they walk, free as a bird.

[Delegate Bob Marshall]

Claire,

I only spoke of illegal aliens who had valid driver's licenses from their home country as receiving less of a fine that Virginia residents who received the identical traffic citations. Out of state includes the class of persons from North Caroline, New York, New Jersey and out of country who are here illegally. That's logic, not some ethnocentric bias.

GO back and read my initial post. I did not mention illegal aliens who lacked a valid driver's licenses from their home country who received traffic citations.

As you as a dedicated democrat should find it amusing that "Hard on Illegal ALiens Republicans" should be the very ones who voted to fine Virginia residents more severely for receiving traffic citations than illegal aliens.

This is just another example of consequences of a bill that needed a lot more serious thought before it was passed into law.

Claire, you and I have laughed at many of the legislative foibles that we see in Richmond. Are you laughing in secret about this, but don't want to admit it?

Still your pal, Del. Bob Marshall

[Claire Gastanaga]

Bob:

Thanks for clarifying. I did make the mistake of reading only Ben's characterization of your post rather than your post itself.

I still think that you have it wrong, though. The key flaw in your logic is the failure to understand that undocumented aliens are Virginia residents (just like you and me) if they actually live here (as the term "resident" is used for driver's license purposes).

Only a person who is here from a foreign country who is NOT residing here may drive on their home country license while in Virginia, just as a person from Maryland who is NOT residing here can drive on their home state license.

Any person from a foreign country who is residing here (legally or illegally) must get a Virginia driver's license immediately upon taking up residence. Unlike persons from the other 49 states who have a 60 day grace period to do so, persons holding licenses from other countries must get a Virginia license immediately upon becoming a resident.

So, legal or illegal, a foreign national who is a Virginia resident (not a domicilliary, just a resident) would be driving without a valid license if they sought to drive on their home country license for any period of time after taking up residence here.

And, persons (Virginia born or foreign born; legal or illegal residents; in-state or out of state) who are caught driving in Virginia without a valid license are not exempt from the civil penalties/fees imposed by the bill.

You always make me smile, Bob. You've got a great sense of humor and I do appreciate your deft use of irony. But here I don't see irony. I see a somewhat cynical (not you, Bob ?!?...) attempt to use the emotional debate of the moment to drive another agenda ... your abiding opposition to the transportation bill and the desire to deflate the grand compromise and make the compromisers pay a price any way you can.

This is one "gotcha" that doesn't quite fit the facts, however. Sorry.

As for laughing in secret about the mixing bowl this issue has become (even without the immigration issue inaccurately dragged into it), it wouldn't be secret laughter if I told, now, would it?

Pals forever,
Claire Gastanaga

P.S. I'm pretty sure about all this, but you're a smart guy and may yet prove me wrong.

[Alton Foley]

Let's lay the blame for this squarely at the feet of its Parents.

While Del. Rust or Albo may correctly be named the "Father" of this atrocity, its "Mother", who introduced it to the Senate in the form of SB1196 is Roscoe Reynolds.

This cannot legitimately be called a "bastard bill" since both fathers have claimed their offspring and are at least attempting to justify its existance.

Senator Reynolds, on the other hand, is making lots and lots of noise here in the 20th District about what a lousy bill it truly is, without telling anyone of his intimate involvement in its birth.