"A PERMANENT UNDERCLASS"

"A PERMANENT UNDERCLASS".  That's from today's Washington Post article by Tim Craig about the new abusive driver fees.  Here's the money quote:

"New Jersey issues about 800,000 license suspension notices a year, a quarter of which result when people are unable to pay the surcharges, (that's 200,000 A YEAR) according to the New Jersey Treasury Department. A 2001 study by the New Jersey Institute for Social Justice found that the suspensions were creating a permanent underclass.

Under pressure to repeal the fees, the state commissioned a study last year that found that although only 16 percent of residents live in low-income areas, those neighborhoods house nearly 40 percent of the people whose licenses have been suspended for failure to pay fees and fines."

What about the other state that has these fines?

"Michigan has issued 750,000 (that's about 200,000 a YEAR) suspension notices for failure to pay the fees since they went into effect in October 2003."

Both Michigan and New Jersey are slightly larger states than Virginia, but it would be fair to assume this means about 150,000 suspended licenses a year in Virginia for failure to pay the obscene fines.  That's 150,000 people A YEAR who may flee the police for a simple traffic stop, and may find themselves IN JAIL AT THE PUBLIC EXPENSE for an offense that started off as MINOR AS GOING 80 MPH ON THE INTERSTATE.

This is what is really wrong with politics.  150,000 poor people who are unlikely to vote having their lives destroyed?  That's not worth the "expense" of a Special Session right now?  But when 1,000 rich families that donate to politicians want the tax on inherited wealth over $2,000,000 repealed last year --- our legislature swings into action?

Shameful.  The only "permanent underclass" that should come out of this bill is politicians who were all swept out of office together for supporting this.

Comments

[Clairese Lippincott]

When the political establishment loses touch with the People, there is fertile ground for revolution. All that is needed is for the rise of a charismatic leader who will mobilize the People against the tyrants.

If the legislature fails to respond to this issue, heads will roll in the November election.

If they continue to ignore the People, they will one day soon find themselves hanging from ropes in the court house squares, all across Virginia.

This is no longer just a metaphor. The elected elitist are running the risk of violent overthrow if they ignore the will of the People.

Change must happen; either by the ballot or the bullet.

[Not Larry Sabato]

Um, that's crazy- and if the police ask for your IP address to interview you I am going to give it to them.

[Sam]

I really do feel like we've argued these fees into the ground... no one's saying anything new, no one's changing their minds, so I don't really see the point of continuing to argue with everyone about the good parts of this plan.

So, I'd like to bring up something else this post ignores but is worth discussing... Has it occurred to anyone else that perhaps we (as in, all states, not just Virginia) would be well served to change the current system so that the penalty for failure to pay a fine is NOT license suspension?

It seems to me that it wouldn't be that hard to create a system where someone who has trouble affording a fine be able to have some kind of payment plan (like... as low as $10 or even less a month for many months, with no interest). I mean, has anyone really ever considered this, so that we don't have these kinds of issues about people having licenses suspended when they're not dangerous drivers?

[Sam]

And, actually, now that I think about it... Isn't there a pretty high fee to get a license in the first place? I know there's a $110 or so fee to reinstate a suspended license... Perhaps we should also consider lowering those if we're so concerned about poor people being punished excessively because of payment ability?

[Sam's Conscience]

If you are not going to suspend the license for non-payment, why would anyone pay the fine?

What's the other option for non-payment? Send them to Gitmo?

Let's go back to the fundamental issue -- don't use your criminal laws to raise $$ for new roads. It makes no sense.

[Sam]

Hey, I've said from day one the biggest problem I have with the fees is that they're purpose is to raise money. I do think that's incredibly dumb.

But the point is, suspension of license for non-payment DOES create an endless cycle. People still need to get to their jobs, and often poorer people live farther from their jobs and have fewer carpooling options. We don't punish people for not paying their taxes by making it HARDER for them to get the money to pay, I don't see why we should do it here either.

Non-payment should be treated the same way as non-payment of other fines. Non-payment because of just refusal to pay should result in jail time, and non-payment because of inability should result in a payment plan. Failure to pay the payment plan should result in wage garnishing. It's a tried and true method that doesn't disproportionately hurt the poor.

Maybe we should give out free licenses to people who profess to be poor, as long as they also agree that they will NOT abide by the laws of the commonwealth. It seems we want to make sure all bad driver keep this driving privilege inviolate. Maybe instead of these poor underprivileged folks having to pay a monetary penalty for their driving transgressions, they should be allowed to drive our kids to school; or provide some other such service where their driving skills can be used to put our citizens even more at risk than when they are just accumulating bad driving points alone. ….. Sheeze…. some people continue to amaze me……..

[Sam]

Ok... where did I say any of that? It's a felony to lie on your driver's license application, so if someone just professing to be poor got a lower fee, they'd go to jail, and I seem to say continuously use a payment plan for fines... I don't say don't suspend licenses for offenses we normally suspend licenses for.

Why should a poor person not be allowed to drive just because they're poor when a rich person who's just as bad a driver (or worse) can still drive just because they have money? It makes perfect sense to me to suspend licenses for seriously dangerous driving... It doesn't make sense to me to suspend licenses because someone doesn't have money.

I'm sorry anon 11:29 but that's about the stupidest sarcastic argument I've heard yet. At least make an argument tangentially related to what Ben or I am saying....

Sam, the comment related to "permanent underclass" statement... didn't know all comments had to relate to what you or Ben are saying.
btw.. I agree with your comments regarding payments.

[Sam]

I meant if you're making a comment about something that's already been said about the poor having to face driving fines (which it was clear you were).

But that makes sense. Sorry if I misread your comment to be a response to me... I do agree that it's kind of foolish for Ben to twist that into an argument against the abuser fees instead of trying to erase this "permanent underclass" which will exist whether there are abuser fees or not... but you're definitely right, any effort to do so shouldn't just allow anyone to just get away with lawbreaking.

[Not Harry F. Byrd, Sr.]

The "Abuser Fee" program is an embarassment and a black eye to Virginia.

This just goes to show how much true leadership is lacking in the General Assembly and how spinless the GOP rank and file are. Very few of them stood up to their leadership on this bill and now that they've been reminded what their base thinks about government nannyism they're finally remembering what a small government conservative is.

Moreover, every time the Governor has been given an opportunity to stand up for the poor over the rich, he's punted. First it was the Estate Tax now this monstrosity.

Talk is cheap. It's time for the Democratic Party to take this issue to the voters, start acting like the Party of the People and REPEAL these things.

[Bubby]

People can't drive now because they are poor - too poor to pay for auto insurance, or fix their car. This law just makes it worse.

To me this is a slap in the face, and a larger retainer for my attorney. For the poor and desperate it is a demonstration that the government is more than willing to put them over the edge. Nice.

Why don't we rebuild the old poor house, and make those that can't pay work the fields to pay their debts?

[Sam]

NHFB - You know I disagree with you over the abuser fees, but I have to say, the more I read about what the Estate Tax was before it was repealed, the more outraged I am that it was repealed... With a minimum of $2 million, an inheritence worth $2.5 million would have paid an estate tax of under $10,000. If a $2.5 million business (as the Republicans keep arguing for) can't afford $10,000 for the tax, they're either lying, or going to fail as a business soon anyways.

Honestly, there was no good reason to repeal the Estate Tax, and I think the Democratic party really dropped the ball letting it happen (I've long given up on the GOP doing ANYTHING for the people... then again, that's why I'm a Democrat)...

[novamiddleman]

nice job on the article Ben you have Craig wrapped around your little finger

[JR Ewing]

I thought Tim Kaine is a friend of the poor and minorities? Yet, he keeps on vigorously defending this scam, which will disproportionately harm them. A revolution is brewing because of this scam, and I hope those con artist in Richmond take notice.

[Sam's Boss]

Sam! Get me my damned coffee! You are one post away from being fired, son!

[Sam]

Haha... Funny. People who know nothing about me making dumb guesses about my life with no bearing on reality... Am I supposed to be hurt? Honestly, I find it flattering that you care.

[Not Harry F. Byrd, Sr.]

The Democratic Party backed Warner's veto on this in 2003 - barely.

As soon as Kaine refused to veto it, the bottom fell out, even with MORE Democrats in the General Assembly.

Kaine pulled the plug on the Estate Tax.

I'm not clear how a guy who spent a year working on a mission in the Third World with folks in extreme poverty thought that repealing that tax or for that matter "creating a permanent underclass" with this legislation was good public policy. I thought he was more thoughtful and well-informed than that.

[Sam's Imaginary Canadian Girlfriend]

He really is quite a handsome young man, and is a talented flautist.

[Sam]

:-) Why thank you. I didn't know I had an imaginary Canadian girlfriend, nor that I played the flute (it's spelled floutist, by the way), but it's nice to know someone cares.

My real Virginian girlfriend may kill you with my clarinet (which I do play... so you're not THAT far off, congrats), though, so beware.

[Sam]

But since I have no way to actually prove anything I say, and you seem too obsessed with the belief that I MUST be some kind of loser (maybe some personal frustrations there? just because the closest relationship you have with a girl are the girls in the Macy's bra ads you pleasure yourself to doesn't make it true for the rest of us), I think I'll just sit back and enjoy the fantasy life you create for me.

Please, do tell me more about myself, I can't wait to read it!

[Sam's Former Imaginary Canadian Girlfriend]

I'm dumping you:

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/flautist

One entry found for flautist.

Main Entry: flau·tist
Pronunciation: 'flo-tist, 'flau-
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian flautista, from flauto flute, from Old Occitan flaut
: FLUTIST

My mother told me you were an idiot and I never believed her!

[Sam]

Ah, reference.com was incorrect I see... I stand corrected. Then again, someone who doesn't play the flute can hardly be expected to know such things, so I'm going to guess you do?

Wow, an imaginary Canadian girlfriend who plays the flute... You can't dump me! You're turning into every guy's dream!

I'm so glad we're putting Ben's blog to such good use...

[Sam's Current Dungeon Master and Luminary]

Sam! It's your turn to role! Will you get the cheetos and get back down here!

[Sam]

Haven't found the Mountain Dew yet.... But it doesn't matter, I'm not IN this part yet, remember? I'm at the tavern getting drunk! Though I do have an ogre-slaying knife that gets +9 against ogres....

Thanks for reminding me of that... probably one of my favorite SNL skits ever.

Anyways, I'm grabbing lunch, so please do feel free to continue obsessing over me... I DO love learning about myself. You could always make a substantive post about the issues here, but your job and home life must be so great you can freely spend all YOUR time just obsessing over me... Ah, it must be glorious.

[Bubby]

What Gov. Kaine said was the we would look at the results of abuser fee implementation in six months...which gives Virginians the opportunity to provide him with a more respectful legislature.

We should get rid of those that who supported these abuser fees.

Many of these folks are
changing their tune now. You don't need to look further than Prince William County to find a few of them.

Lingmafelter and Frederick both who co-sponsored this twice now are against this.
Jackson Miller voted for this every chance he had and Bob Marshall voted for it twice.

Lets not forget that Frederick did not even vote on the final bill instead hiding out in the hallway while the vote was taken place.

Its time for some new representation in Prince William County.

[Sam]

Well, I'll admit that I don't oppose the abuser fees presently, but I take what Governor Kaine says to heart. If, in six months, these fees HAVE proven to be as disastrous as everyone seems to be predicting they will, I will be more than willing to admit I was wrong and will support repealing them. But the fact is, we really just don't know the true impact yet... The law's only been in effect for 23 days, and most people (except a few, efficient counties) who have been ticketed in that time haven't even had their court dates yet....

[Not Sam]

I know it's going to be a disaster and that Bubby is right. But, see, I can look at facts and infer results as opposed to just waiting around to see what happens.

[Sam]

I see... and just what facts are you using to reach your inferences? I would really like to know what percentage of drivers actually get pulled over for the offenses that the abuser fees have been written for. I haven't seen one person mention that little fact. Just how many people is this actually going to affect? Please, if you're so good at reading facts and inferring results, tell me.

[Folks]

I had this exact debate with my close friend on this issue 2 years ago when this was part of the original failed transportation plan from the Governor. I came to 2 conclusions 1) It is wrong for the state government or for that matter any government to count on people breaking the law in order to balance their budgets. That is not to say they should not account for that money in the budget but it seems to me it shouldn’t play any role in sustained funding for something like transportation. 2) Excessive fees for breaking relatively minor laws or excessive fees for services individuals need to get by are inherently detrimental to people who live paycheck to paycheck. I ended up supporting the Governor’s plan because I thought it was the “good democrat” thing to do. I am just glad to see this debate playing out.

ps payday loans = Evil

[Doug]

Good lord Sam, read the post:

"New Jersey issues about 800,000 license suspension notices a year, a quarter of which result when people are unable to pay the surcharges, (that's 200,000 A YEAR) according to the New Jersey Treasury Department. A 2001 study by the New Jersey Institute for Social Justice found that the suspensions were creating a permanent underclass.

[Sam]

Folks - Your first point is absolutely right. I think pretty much all the abuser fee supporters here have agreed with that as well, and I would challenge anyone who thinks it's a good idea to count on the money to explain their logic there.

For your second point, with a few exceptions (and yes, I do think those exceptions should be repealed... and yes, I also think those exceptions are worth a special session to repeal) the fines don't apply to minor laws, they apply to very dangerous activity that kills thousands of people every year.

Just as a note, most estimates by even anti-fee newspapers put the number at about 8% of Virginia motorists who will ever face the fees. If some of the more ridiculous ones are repealed, that number drops significantly.

[Sam]

Doug - I did read the post. As you'll see above, my response to that is that there's a permanent underclass created by this with these fees or without. This statistic SHOULD lead to seeking penalties for non-payment other than license suspension, not a reason to end the abuser fees.

Now, I'll say this. IF changing the penalty for non-payment just isn't going to happen, and I have to choose between the abuser fees plus the staus quo or no abuser fees plus the status quo, then fine, the abuser fees should go.

I would also note New Jersey is not Virginia.

A final question... what's the penalty for failure to pay the abuser fees? Is it treated like failure to pay taxes, or does it also result in license suspension? If the latter, then I'll support changing that, too.

I think failure to pay the fees should result in the abuser first having their cell phone taken away, second their cable television and third goes the video/computer games.
I grew up in the 60’s in a house w/o indoor plumbing so I think that these little extras are not too much to lose for violating the law and not paying the price. Then and only then will I believe there is actually a “permanent underclass” brewing in our midst. I believe that, for the most part, these people are claiming poverty while still holding on the “wants” in life and not yet relegated only to the “needs”. There is a big difference for anyone who has been there.

[republitarian]

The money information in that article is that there is only a 40% collection rate....

[I.Publius]

Anon 3:28 -- you heartless bastard. :-)

I agree with you 100%.

If you can't do the time (or pay the fine), then don't do the crime.

[phriendlyjaime]

I love the first two comments of this post. :)

[Sam]

Jaime - I agree... they are amongst the gems of this blog. :-)