THIS IS WAR

NOW THE GLOVES ARE OFF OBAMA PEOPLE...

Disgusting.

Taylor Marsh has more.

Comments

[ACC]

The gloves were on before?

[Doug in Mount Vernon]

OMG you have got to be kidding.

So pointing out a substantive difference between their health care plans (just as was done in the widely-praised debate last night) is suddenly an affair attack, evoking this kind of over-the-top childish reaction?

Come on Ben. You've really, truly, deeply, lost it.

[Sam]

I fail to see how this is not a legitimate concern to raise with her plan.

[Doug in Mount Vernon]

Key line in Taylor's blog article:

"I've just gotten off a media call from the Clinton campaign"

So, let me get this straight. Last night, it was all grace and charm and agreement with calm explanations of substantive differences.

Today, the Clinton camp is declaring war.

Cool.

Obviously, he shredded her on health care and she's freaking out.

It just doesn't get any better than this...

[Doug in Mount Vernon]

affair = unfair

[Ozzy]

Ben's goin' off the rails on a crazy train!!!

I am a Republican but I see nothing wrong with pointing to the truth. Both Hillary and Judy Feder advocate "mandatory" forced healthcare. Mandadory means there must be consequences if you don't buy into the socialized medicine. The end result of Feder and Hillary's plan is to potentially criminalize health care. I don't want the government forcing me to buy their healthcare. I don't like Obama but at least he has a little more commone sense. I certainly give him credit for it.

[Doug in Mount Vernon]

This is about the fact that health care was a perceived advantage of Hillary among primary voters.

Obviously, something on that issue changed last night, or we wouldn't be seeing this level of desperation.

[Bryan]

False and misleading indeed! The Taylor Marsh headline reads "Obama REVIVES 1993 Anti Hillary 'Harry and Louise'", with a screen shot of the old ad at the top of the post. The intention is clearly to convey to the reader that Obama is using those actual ads. So the post is a lie, because he's not. If Marsh had written "Obama ad REMINISCENT of Harry and Louise", she'd have an argument. But she didn't, because she's a liar.

[Bubby]

Where's the Beef? I followed your link to two other links and still I can't find anything substantial. Someone has the vapors.

[Idiot]

Doug in Mount Vernon,

I appreciate your die-hard support for Obama, but you clearly did not know what was going on in the early 1990s.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/01/obama-does-harry-and-louise-again/

LET ME BE CLEAR.

It was SHIT LIKE THIS that helped Fuckwads like Newt, Army, and Delay gain majority leadership in the HOUSE.

If you support Leslie, it was SHIT LIKE THIS that caused a furor from the right wing and moderates to oust leaders who believed in the labor movement, access to education, and fair and equal healthcare.

Obama's campaign made an enormous error: reminding those in their 40s and 50s of the horrid public perception campaign waged against leaders who wanted universal healthcare.

This mailer is HORRIBLE. I am so angry right now, and I am glad Ben has addressed this issue.

This happened 25 years ago, and this new mailer could be a rally call to those who remember how many middle class and poor had really lost in 1994.

[Tammy]

Well, you're right on one thing -- truth and full disclosure are not fair to Hillary . . .

[Ricky]

So an image of two people sitting at their kitchen table is somehow off limits?

I'm not sure why this should unhinge anyone. And it certainly does not sink to the level of the Clinton campaign who knowingly spread falsehoods about Obama's support for abortion rights in another infamous mailer.

Didn't a Clinton supporter compare Obama to the Nazis for this ad?

Worked for Jerry Kilgore...

[Idiot]

Didn't a Clinton supporter compare Obama to the Nazis for this ad?

Worked for Jerry Kilgore...

Posted by: | February 01, 2008 at 01:49 PM

Nice try, Obamatard.

"Len Nichols, director of the health policy program fort he New America Foundation, who is also uncommitted, was particularly furious about the Obama mailer..."

Fact is, this mailer is just pissing everyone off.

[Bubby]

The couple at the table were from the health insurance industry attack ad on the Clintons - it's like 15 years old.

[Idiot]

Bubby knows how to count?Good job, Bubby. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Now go count the votes that are slipping away from Obama.

[Not Wayne Rooney]

This blog post does have something in common with war, it is good for absolutely nothing.

After reading this blog post I am sure Obama supporter across the Commonwealth (the Great Doug Wilder, Tim Kaine, Rick Boucher, Bobby Scott, and Ward Armstrong) are all shaking in their shoes.

[THD]

A few new polls TPM did not have up yet when I looked -- just reporting -- you'll note there are wide variations in the polls coming out now -- looks like lots of movement back and forth

American Research Group

Connecticut
Clinton 48, Obama 35... McCain 43, Romney 25

Illinois
Obama 51, Clinton 40...
(others have Obama winning 2 to 1)
McCain 48, Romney 34

---
Greenberg Quinlan Rosner Research (D)

New Jersey
Clinton 44, Obama 38

[Ricky]

Me thinks you Clintonites doth protest too much...

[Doug]

I wonder what war from Ben looks like? Maybe 128pt font?

[Doug in Mount Vernon]

"Nice try, Obamatard"

Well that sure was a short honeymoon!

[Doug in Mount Vernon]

"Fact is, this mailer is just pissing everyone off"

Everyone? Or everyone who is supporting Hillary?

I don't get the outrage, really. If he lied about her plan, then there would be something there. He is simply pointing out a factual, substantive DIFFERENCE in the campaign.

That doesn't even rise to the level of an attack, let alone unfair.

Keep flaming though.

This is going down the exact same path as "fairy tale" if y'all keep it up.

[Doug]

ha- it made news for one second, then a Clinton supporter blew it:

"I am personally outraged at the picture used in this mailing," said Len Nichols of the New America foundation, a leading supporter of mandatory insurance, who called it a "Harry and Louise evocation."

"It is as outrageous as having Nazis march through Skokie, Illinois," Nichols said. "I just find it disgusting that this kind of imagery is being used to attack the only way to get to universal coverage."

[Doug]

Sweet baby Jesus, did no one pick up that Hillary just lost today?

Ann Coulter: I'll Campaign For Hillary If McCain Is The Nominee

nuff said.

[Doug]

And here they go:

http://bp2.blogger.com/_1xQeOPE9ePU/R6NjfkjLx9I/AAAAAAAABFM/xgyIBALpxmw/s1600-h/shark.gif

[TDH]

A couple interesting polls. The first has Clinton climbing back into a tie in Alabama. The second blew me away because just a couple of days ago Clinton's lead was 6, same state, same pollster.

Alabama
Clinton 47, Obama 47 Tie

Massachusetts Democratic Primary SurveyUSA Clinton 57, Obama 33

You can see this at the RCP polls. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/latestpolls/index.html

[TDH]

And another one. Yeah, yeah, it's Fox, but it has Clinton up by 10 nationally. So is Fox any good? Survey USA has then ranked 5th in accuracy (out of 25 pollsters) this season. Here's the Fox link:

http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/020108_election_release_web.pdf

[Doug]

While all this is good fun, at least for me, let me relate a little cautionary tale. First of all, I do like Hillary. Yeah, I'll vote for Obama and it won't count cause I live in Virginia, but anyway. I feel pretty neutral, loved last night, am very happy with either.

So, the cautionary tale: Deron Washington plays basketball for the Hokies. I love watching him play. His mom is wonderful - moved here after Katrina. He's a really nice kid- I have a great picture of him hanging out with my 7 year old boy in the gym who Deron was just great with. You get the idea- just an all around good guy, good student, wonderful ball player- he'll be in the NBA at some point. He's skilled. He can win a game by himself.

But, he's a flopper. He's not just a flopper, he's a known flopper by the refs and it drives me absolutely crazy to see him do it. There's no reason for it- he has the talent. And when he does it, he hurts his team. Take a look at the first half of the last duke game- the hokies showed up to play. Deron showed up to flop and got two fouls called his way, then he kept flopping. The hokies fell apart.

I'm not saying anything, I'm just saying. Flopping doesn't win you the big games. It works once or twice, then you lose by double digits and everyone knows you deserved to lose.

[TDH]

This is an odd one--new Texas poll, done in the last two days. Clinton 48 Obama 38. http://ivrpolls.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=1

[Rowhey]

Doug,
The other day, you were putting out some crap about Hillary winning the general in a landside.

Why is it that every poll, countless pundits, and even good ole' Mudcat Saunders seem to disagree with you?

Are you gifted with some kind of precognition?

Here's the Mudcat quote:The Washington Post reports Edwards aide Dave "Mudcat" Saunders said, "I'm going to do everything I can to make sure it's not Hillary Clinton. ... Hillary Clinton has about as much chance of beating John McCain as this Scots-Irish hillbilly has of becoming pope." Saunders's "logic is that there is no state in the country that Clinton can win that John Kerry didn't win in 2004. Which leaves the Democrats a state short of victory.""

[Doug]

Heh- as my kids say, 'whatever'. Rowhey- Ann Coulter is going to campaign for Hill if she wins!

Anyway, isn't mudcat still Bubby in your book?

I honestly have not looked at polls for the general yet, because I think they are pointless until the primary is done. Honestly.

My "precognition" is my understanding of economics and what I actually do know about and read about regularly, having been a business owner for 12 years now. Our economy is going to be in the shitter like it was in 1979 this year. I mean big time. Just look at the jobs news today- -17,000. Anyway, the economic stuff I know.

In that atmosphere, as we go into our third quarter of recession in October, there is no way McCain can win. Shoot, I'd even say he couldn't beat Kerry in that climate.

I do love Mudcat's quotes though.

[Doug in Mount Vernon]

This is a hoot!

TDH's poll cherry-picking is hysterical. We have access to all the same sites TDH. There are always outlier polls to cherry pick. If you're trying to construct some argument that Barack doesn't have the momentum at the moment, good luck!

Look at them all, or don't look at them at all.

Besides, polls are just polls, and as we know, they've not been terribly accurate in any primary this year, so far.

Anyone who wants to deny the very palpable and very real sense of Barack's momentum on the ground all over the place is sort of ignoring reality.

[Doug]

Oh, and please note this disclaimer- I am NOT happy about the economy sucking wind like McCain at a tailhook party. I wish I were wrong about 2008. If I am, and we recover, then it's President McCain, especially if Iraq is so reorganized (cleansed, surged, depopulated, whatever) that there are only the few a week bombs instead of the few a day bombs.

[Sam]

TDH, Clinton was leading Alabama, it's Obama who's climbed to the tie there. And why no report of SurveyUSA's new Connecticut poll from today which now shows Obama in the lead (48-44)?

[Doug]

Actually, I just saw a clip of angry and kooky acting McCain and I take it all back. He's going to lose all the debates and dear sweet manchild Ann Coulter. No way he can win, that's just a guy feeling supported by no facts at all.

[Doug]

found the quote. She's worthless, but if you are into trannies, she's pretty hot:

ANN COULTER: "She's more conservative than he is. I think she'd be stronger on the war on terrorism. I absolutely believe that.... I will campaign for her if it's McCain... She lies less than John McCain, she's smarter than John McCain."

ALAN COLMES: "Let me get this straight, would you vote for Hillary Clinton?"

COULTER: "Yeah."

COLMES: "You would actually go into a voting booth..."

COULTER: "If it's close and the candidate is John McCain, because John McCain is not only bad for Republicanism, which he definitely is, he is bad for the country, very very bad for the country."

[Rowhey]

Doug,
1. Don't bring up Ann Coulter until she eats at least a dozen cheeseburgers. The bitch needs to gain weight.

2. I was an econ major so I understand a little about the economy myself. You can't compare 1979 to the conditions of today.

In 1979/80, we had 10.5% unemployment, the inflation rate was in double digits, and interest rates were over 20%. Try selling a house in the Carter years (as a parenthetical my parents did it).

In short, we had stagflation and cost-push inflation as a result of too much government regulation, too much taxation, and a government that was crowding out the investment market.

Our problems of today are of a different variety and require a substantially different approach.

[JMU Duke]

This mailer raises a good question: how will Hillary enforce her plan against those who do not enroll?

[Not Larry Sabato]

Clearly the death penalty JMU. Why don't you guys send that out too?

[Dan]

Sam, Obama up by four in Connecticut? That is impressive.

I wonder how a stronger than expected Obama showing in the East will effect the outcome on Super Tuesday in California. There will be a few hours of voting left out there as projected winners are announced back here. Some Californians who are wavering may want to jump on the Obama bandwagon.

[Rowhey]

JMU,
You bring up a good point. And, the overriding question about Hillary is that she screwed up health care so bad in 1993, how and why should we expect different results now?

It reminds me of so some of the worst NFL coaches that bounce from team to team. Norv Turner was terrible with the 'Skins, he sucked with the Raiders, so why should anyone expect a different result with the Chargers?

It's all about track record...wins and losses.

[Doug]

Rowhey- I remember those times and my parents bought a house in early 1980. I think their first fixed mortgage was 16%.

I did not say it was the same. I said it would be as bad. The indicators can be very different (they would have to be, things change). My only point is, Senator McCain is not an economic superstar, by his own admission. Independants are not going to vote for him to fix the economy, no matter the indicators or the proper fix (especially since Bernanke printing money right now is making everything worse!). We will be sucking wind and anyone but your 30% Bush lovers will be saying, "change, it's ALL I care about."

[Spank That Donkey]

I can't wait to use Obama's comments against Hillary in the election, over and over, and over again!

That's sweet 'Slash & Burn' tactics by a Dem, on a Dem, on an issue dear to the Hillary Campaign..

Come on Obama, say it again, that Kennedy has seen 12 plans like this go down in flames.... burn baby burn!

[Rowhey]

Doug,
You underestimate McCain at your own expense. Independents and moderate conservatives are the ones propelling him.

Sometimes, I really question whether you are all that bright. Put the bong down for few moments.

[Doug]

haha- TDH forgot the headline from that Fixed News poll:

FOX News Poll: Clinton Seen as Ready, Most Likely To 'Do Anything' To Win

[Rowhey]

"I love the smell of napalm in the morning."

This is fun to watch. Better than the Super Bowl but not as fun as the Daytona 500.

[Rowhey]

Peace out, Doug. I'll joust with you next week. By the way, what economic experience does Hillary have?

Answer: sat on Corporate Board of Wal-Mart and helped preside over the passage of NAFTA.

What economic experience does Obama have?

Answer: represented slum lords.

[Doug]

Just don't ask my wife if I'm all that bright. I can't take that sort of beat down. And it's Friday, I'll bong all I want.

But really, I just don't care much about McCain. I recall, much too vividly, rooting against McCain because I was SURE he was the one who could beat Gore. I will never root against McCain again. McCain losing the primary in 2000 cost this country $4 Trillion, thousands of lives who never needed to be lost, and I can only begin to guess what else.

But, he will lose the general. And that will be 98% because of Bush.

[Brian Kirwin]

Hillary admits her plan is "universal" and every must participate. If someone doesn't want to, pointing out that they can afford to doesn't refute the point. Under Hillary, everyone must buy health insurance, whether they want to or not. I don't understand why pointing that out is "gloves off"

[John]

Ha! Another example of how Obama says one thing and does another ... thank God he doesn't stand a chance of being named as Hillary's VP choice.
The dude couldn't even win a congressional primary when Bobby Rush retired - and only beat Alan Keyes (of all people!) in his first Senate race. The national polls at this point in time are utterly meaningless - he is fully unprepared to defend his ultra-liberal record, ties to Rezko, and his complete lack of foreign policy experience. If he is the nominee, he will not run a competitive general election campaign against John McCain - and all of the online Obama nuts and the talking heads on MSBNC will have a lot of explaining to do!

And "trannies," Doug? Doesn't that casual slur run counter to the whole message of your progressive candidate? You're as big a phoney as he is.

[RicJohn]

John...you need to get your facts straight. Bobby Rush is still a Congressman from Illinois, who by the way is an Obama backer. Obama ran AGAINST Rush in a House Democratic primary in 2000. Obama lost by a 2-1 margin against the incumbent, who is very popular in that Chicagoland-area district.

Obama won with 70% over Alan Keyes in a presidential year. He got massive crossover support, and even if it was Alan Keyes who was the GOP candidate, Obama still won easily. If conservatives were so worried about him at the time, maybe they should have nominated a better candidate from within the Illinois state limits?

[Doug in Mount Vernon]

I still don't hear anyone addressing the substance of what was said in the mailer. It was completely substantive, fair, and hardly the same thing as what the insurance companies did back in '93.

Obviously, the press isn't picking up on the outrage either.....

[Terry]

Ben,

I seem to recall outrage by you a few months ago re John Edwards when HE suggested that people be "Forced" to buy health insurance. As I recall Ben, you called it "UnAmerican".

As for this ad, the only thing that is even similar to the Harry and Louise ad is the picture of a man and woman sitting at the kitchen table. That's how most American families decide on things like health insurance plans, medical bills, etc. So what picture might have been more appropriate?

The copy doesn't compare to the 1993 ads at all. Hillary should have answered the question about how this mandate will be enforced last night. She has yet to do that and I think voters do deserve an answer. Until we know that answer people will continue to be confused. Will the money be taken from a person's pay check like social security???

[Doug in Mount Vernon]

Oh boy. I am really liking the poll numbers showing up on TPM's polltracker this afternoon. More gains by Obama in more polls in the northeast showing he's brought those from 20-30 point races down into the single digits, with the exception of NY, where he's still going to get a respectable number of delegates it looks like. These numbers aren't as promising as the Rasmussen numbers that showed NJ and NY closer, but they still represent big gains for Obama from the same polling firm--basically it's confirmation of momentum. Also, it's important to know that SurveyUSA's style of polling always ends up magnifying support for high name-recognition candidates (like Hillary) because of its automated touch-tone polling and the lack of "undecided" options in many questions. And Rasmussen has Obama up in Illinois at 60-24, despite the ARG poll. The momentum in Missouri is particularly awesome. Hot.

Pres '08 (D) NATIONAL
Feb 1 Gallup
Clinton 44%, Obama 41%

MO-Pres (D)
Feb 1 SurveyUSA
Clinton 48%, Obama 44%

NJ-Pres (D)
Feb 1 GQR (D)
Clinton 44%, Obama 38%

TX-Pres (D)
Feb 1 IVR
Clinton 48%, Obama 38%

AL-Pres (D)
Feb 1 SurveyUSA
Obama 47%, Clinton 47%

CT-Pres (D)
Feb 1 ARG
Clinton 48%, Obama 35%

CT-Pres (D)
Feb 1 SurveyUSA
Obama 48%, Clinton 44%

NJ-Pres (D)
Feb 1 SurveyUSA
Clinton 51%, Obama 39%

NY-Pres (D)
Feb 1 SurveyUSAClinton 54%, Obama 38%

It doesn't matter. Neither Clinton's nor Obama's plans will cover Ben's severe case of "Twinkie-nosis."

Did you notice that when Obama was asked a question in the debate, he has trouble getting to his point? A lot of hesitation and "uhs". He's not really ready for prime time Republicans.... maybe someday.

John at 4:32, that's the way I see it. Obama just isn't the candidate to stand up to the Republicans. They would love to have him as the Dem candidate. Why are the Republicans all over Hillary so much? Answer: So they can have at Obama.

[TDH]

Hey Doug, you'd trade Hillary's numbers for Obama's right now, no?

Here's a new one. Alabama is back in the Clinton column +6 in a 1/31 poll, Insider advantage.

How about that Massachusetts comeback for Clinton?

Rowhey--econ major? So I take it you like NAFTA and Wal-Mart? I do. If Obama becomes a protectionist -- if elected -- he could push this recession into a major Depression, no?

Obama snubbed the JJ dinner in Georgia yesterday. Hillary spoke by remote. Insider said: "Dems' J-J Dinner Morphs Into A Hillary Clinton Campaign Event

By Dick Pettys
InsiderAdvantage Georgia

(1/31/08) The Georgia Democratic Party’s annual Jefferson-Jackson Day dinner drew a huge crowd Wednesday night and morphed by default into a Hillary Clinton campaign event, with Hillary booming into a microphone that must have been turned on full-blast, and a conga line of her supporters snaking its way through the room."

We'll see if that's a mistake.

But but but I hardly knew the guy. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/martin-lewis/despicable-clintons-fix-r_b_83667.html
[see picture]

This is only misleading because Hillary is a Communist and believe in giving out healthcare for free.

I can't imaging that Hillary would ever propose a plan that involved people actually paying for things -- unless of course they actually had a job and had to foot the tax bill for this stuff.

Therefore, I do agree with you. This ad is very misleading.

[Doug in Mount Vernon]

Oh TDH, keep it up. I can't wait to see your posts on Feb 6th!

The point is, the momentum CONTINUES in the Obama direction, and no matter how much Hill-aide you've already OD'd on, it can't be denied.

There is no single polling company you can point to that does not have momentum continuing in that direction and that's the important thing going into Feb 5.

If Barack comes out only down by 150-200 delegates, he will easily catch up by March's Super Tuesday, and then it will really come down to OH, TX, and PA. I'm comfortable with that given the momentum. Are you?

[Harry Landers]

This is war? War?

War is when people get shot. And bombs are dropped. And limbs are blown off. And innocents are killed. And heroes made.

This is war? No. This is a silly political spat.

[Not Larry Sabato]

That's a fair point Mr. Landers.

[Dan]

Harry Landers, You are so very right. This is NOT war. This is politics during the silly season.

Most of the world settles it's differences by shooting at each other. As nutty as it is, I much prefer our way.

God Bless America.

[Doug]

Dan:

"Most of the world settles it's differences by shooting at each other. As nutty as it is, I much prefer our way."

I think a few cultures do that, not "most" of the world. Don't get me wrong, America is still great and we mostly don't shoot and bomb each other.

[Interested Observer]

polls, schmolls. Tuesday night/Wednesday morning will be here soon enough.

Then then on to Virginia, Maryland, and DC.

If perception is reality, then the media story is going to be that Obama keeps plugging away and that Hillary can't knock him out. Makes for an interesting convention.

[spotter]

So Hillary Clinton declares war again. How'd that work out the first time? And when are we going to hear "Mission Accomplished" on this one?

[The Richmond Democrat]

Hillary Clinton is running on experience but running away from her record.

It's an incredibly frustrating situation for her. Her instinct is to seek and destroy Obama with nasty slash and burn tactics. Her revival of the "Southern Strategy" didn't work out quite the way she planned, though, and every time she tries to go negative, the Obama campaign simply points to her incredibly dismal record.

So declare war all you want. By all means Ben, give us an excuse to discuss Hillary Clinton's record.

[Interested Observer]

I'm not a big believer in polls. We need only look at South Carolina, Nevada and New Hampshire to show that. However, I think they can tell us if there is going to be a blow-out:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/02/03/MNF7UR6FE.DTL&tsp=1

2 points in CA. No blowout.