George Allen's Church Problem

A few weeks ago, a national controversy erupted when a church in Virginia opened its doors for Muslims to use for Friday prayers.  Fox News joined the fray, saying the move could help create "Chrislam"- a combination of Christianity and Islam. Then Mike Huckabee weighed in, asking whether a church was “really ever intended to be a place where something that is the antithesis of the gospel of Christ would be presented.”

This issue got so hot that even the Daily Show weighed in.

But lost in all of this coverage of Aldersgate United Methodist Church was one key fact- this is also the church of Former Senator and Governor George Allen.

I've been avoiding writing about this until the Allen's made a public comment or a decision on what they were going to do about this situation.  Fort Hunt Patch reports that "some Aldersgate parishioners have left the church" over this issue.  This conservative group included some close friends of the Allen's- so what would they do?  Would they side with evangelical conservatives like Mike Huckabee that have condemned their church- or would they decide to stay in the church they have been a member of for about 10 years since they moved to Northern Virginia?

Yesterday, some regular attendees of the 11 am service at Aldersgate said they had heard the Allen's had made their decision.  So did the Allen's join the conservative faction of their church and leave over Muslims being allowed to pray in the building?

The answer is coming later today, along with some interesting reactions to the Allen's decision.

Comments

[BM]

This is your bombshell? Attacking George Allen's family about their faith and their church is out of bounds.

I dont care whether he attends the church or not. That's between the Allen family and the preacher and the congregation. Unless of course you think Obama has some explaing to do, about a certain church and preacher he once attended? Rev. Jeremiah Wright, anyone?

[Not Larry Sabato]

How am I attacking him?

[BM]

not HIM; his FAMILY! It's below the belt brother. Below the belt.

[Lainie]

Please. This isn't attacking his family about their faith; it's attacking them for being anti-Muslim bigots. Plenty of churches allow Jewish congregations to use their space for high holiday or regular services, so why should allowing Muslims to use that same space cause parishioners at the Allens' church to leave? Because of the way they regard Muslims. That's the only answer I can see.

[Mr. Jefferson]

Speaking of which, did the Obamas ever pick a church?

[kelley in virginia]

if GFA & family doesn't want to attend this church, then what is the big deal?

[Loudoun Lady]

You are looking for a big splash in a dirty little puddle.

How is George Allen or anyone that worships anywhere suddenly responsible for all other parishoners at their place of worship?

[Carl Spackler]

I see it as a bigger problem for Tim Kaine.

What if his home parish decided to do the same for Muslims. How would he react?

The left will go crazy no matter what George Allen does, but they should ask their own standard bearer what he would do.

[Bharat]

This is a vaguely interesting non-story.

[Andrew]

"I see it as a bigger problem for Tim Kaine.

What if his home parish decided to do the same for Muslims. How would he react?"

How is a hypothetical situation you made up about Time Kaine at all applicable here? Even if you wanted to make a hypothetical answer an issue, I don't think anyone that would be turned off by Kaine saying "yes, I'd welcome them" would be voting for Allen and if he said "no, they shouldn't use the space", there's really no place for upset liberals who still plan to vote to run to. Plus, Dems have shown much more of a tendency to vote for people with conservative sensibilities (from Bob Casey to Jim Webb to the Blue Dogs) than Republicans have been willing to get behind people with even the slightest hint of liberal sensibilities these days (unless you seriously think the Tea Party would allow a Tom Davis or a Mike Castle to ever run in their party ever again). It's an issue for a GOP candidate because of that rigidity.

This is as much an issue as it would have been had the president not rejected Jeremiah Wright's conspiratorial rants, which he did during the 2008 Democratic debates. I could see this being an issue in NoVa, where community relations between Muslims and other groups are generally good and culture warring against the bogeyman of Sharia Law is not palatable.

[SatirclAlx]

I don't consider this newsworthy. In fact, I would prefer it if all religions weren't newsworthy in any way, shape or form...

That being said, this just isn't going to be a big deal for Allen. I thought this was going to be another racial gaffe. Rumor was Allen referred to African_Americans and othersof color as "brown people."

[not tim]

funny, bothers me most that Allen, from a family of good Presbyterians, goes to a Methodist Church. oh well.

[Chris]

If we are talking about churches, anyone wonder how Chap Petersen voted with Truro Parish to leave the Anglican Church of England over gay marriage and things like that?

[Andrew]

"I don't consider this newsworthy. In fact, I would prefer it if all religions weren't newsworthy in any way, shape or form..."

As long as people's lives are newsworthy, religion will be newsworthy. It's been with us since the big bang.

[Steve Vaughan]

Can't say I think this "issue" is all that earth-shattering. If the Allens decide to continue to go to the church, that might anger some of the same types of Republicans who already had doubts about him. Doesn't appear at this point they'll have a major influence on the nomination. Maybe they would have if they could have congealed behind one candidate, but that didn't happen.

[Wolfwood]

I presume Democrat politicians let the Young Republicans meet in their offices in the evenings, yes? If not...OUTRAGE!

[Not Larry Sabato's Third Cousin Twice Removed]

Seriously, this is your Bombshell breaking news? I am trying to figure out how this would in any way alter this election. Throwing many stones from that glass house not larry?

[change]

For all those non-churchgoers who love to opine on issues where they have no personal knowledge… here is a newsflash….

All church congregations have disagreements, they break off start new churches and have more disagreements. But ultimately, they are bound by one truth.

Maybe you guys should look more to what unites churches as opposed to what divides them.

[Interested Observer]

The real question is does the church allow any groups of differing faiths to use their facilities? Lainie has it right; many churches allow their facilities to be used by smaller Jewish congregations. So if it is a matter of the church allowing some faiths but not this one, it is a clear case of Islamaphobia and should be called out as such. If their policy is that no other denominations or faiths use their facilities, then I don't see an issue - their right as the property owner.

[change]

nice to see that so many here are mind readers when it comes to other peoples decisions.

[Lainie]

@change - why else would Allen have decided to leave his church in response to this, of not his negative feelings towards Muslims?

[Lori Carlson]

Hold on a minute...a church that does NOT allow it's private facilities to be used by a group that completely disagrees with the most basic tenants of their faith, is now going to be attacked as "islamaphobic"?? Holy cow give me a break! We can't have Christianity in public institutions, but you can tell a private church that they have to share their private facilities with any group du jour? Get Real. This is over the line.

[Lainie]

@Lori

1) Islam doesn't disagree with the basic tenets of Christianity. In fact, it accepts all the Christian prophets as valid and sees itself as building upon the Judeo-Christian tradition.

2) The question in this post isn't whether churches have to share their space with Muslim congregations; it's the meaning of Allen's decision to leave his church as a result of its voluntary decision to share its space.

[Rtwng Extrmst]

Lanie,

Last time I checked, Islam doesn't believe that Jesus is God. Christianity does. Islam stands totally opposed to the tenets of Christianity.

Allen, Huckabee and others (if they so choose) have every right to point out that allowing a religion that is diametrically opposed to the faith to use a church facility to conduct services in opposition of that faith is not a good idea. Do you remember how Jesus himself treated those who mis-used the Temple?

I would have similar issues with letting a synagogue use my church's facility for religious services. However I will say that Judaism is far closer to Christianity than Islam is.

On the other hand I have no problem with this Church or any other doing this if that's what they want with their facility.

I also don't fault anyone who is a member of this church leaving over this issue. This is not bigotry, but is rather about seriousness of your belief.

I just find it a bit personally offensive as a Christian that they would do this in what is supposed to be a facility for holy use. Much like I would rather not have my church be used as a brothel or lent to drug dealers to do their trade. This is not to be confused with reaching out to help those caught in prostitution or addicted to drugs. Similarly I would have my church open it's doors in friendship and to serve muslims who might be in need, but I would draw the line at conducting muslim religious services.

Lastly, how many Mosques do you know that allow Christian services?

[Lainie]

You just equated being a Muslim to being a prostitute, pimp, or drug-dealer. Even if Allen isn't bigoted, it certainly sounds like you are.

More seriously, though, I guess your comment gets into the more theological subtleties of places of worship. Is the holiness for your religion innate in a place because it's built and consecrated for your religion's worship? Can it be sullied by the occurrence of irreligious activities? I'm not that familiar with Christian theology on this subject, so I guess I'm not really qualified to respond.

[Andrew]

"We can't have Christianity in public institutions, but you can tell a private church that they have to share their private facilities with any group du jour? Get Real. This is over the line."

I don't think anyone has said that any church should be forced by law to share space with another religion.

We are free to give our opinions of groups and individual behavior, however. That's what's going on here.

[Spock]

I thought George Allen was Jewish?

[Rtwng Extrmst]

Lanie,

I made no such equivalence at all. I merely made the comparison that it's an activity that Christians disagree with and is an affront to God. Therefore should not be condoned by Christians by allowing it to be conducted in a Church.

And it's not the building itself that is literally holy, but rather the intent and conduct of the activities there. If the church is owned by a congregation of Christians, all I'm saying is they should not allow conduct there that is an affront to God. Look at the first commandment.

[Lainie]

Like I said, you're a bigot. You're so close-minded that you can't accept that other people worship differently than you do and regard other religions as offensive, an affront.

The first commandment is "I am the Lord your G-d and thou shalt have no other G-d before me." Nothing in Islam violates that, fyi.

I'm bored of this conversation now.

[Noticed]

It's so easy for those who do not attend any house of worship to criticize those who do, isn't it?

Look, churches can ban Jews, Muslims, other Christian denominations, or investment clubs for that matter if they feel like it. They can allow Jewish services and not allow Hindu ones. It's their property and they can do what they want. If allowing (or not allowing) a certain organization is so important to a member that they choose to quit, so be it.

Lainie, if RE's analogies make you call him a "bigot," that only means that your own hatred of those with whom you disagree cause you to think that such people hate you. Basically, that is a sign of your own lack of self-respect, regardless of your religious background (or lack thereof).

Again, why is this an issue for George Allen when it's not an issue for Democrats that Obama went to a church for 20 years that featured speakers from Hamas?

[Mr. Jefferson]

lol @ Spock

[SatirclAlx]

If Churches are private property and can discriminate, why do they get a tax break? Tax all places of worship and properties owned by religious organizations. Deficit would be greatly reduced!

[Bubberella]

Jesus is a prophet in the Muslim religion, so I don't know how anyone can opine that the Christian and Muslim religions are diametrically opposed. They share many of the same beliefs such as helping the poor, respect for family and elders, golden rule and the like. Whether one variety of sky ghost worshipers opens their doors to another is of no consequence to me.

Similarly, I don't give a good hoot in hell where, with whom, or whether George Allen and his family worship. I wish that Republicans would return the sentiment for those of us who don't share their beliefs or lack thereof.

Yours in separation of church and state.

[LAS]

Well, Noticed, I am a church, vestry and choir member, so perhaps I am allowed to comment?

I think the question here is whether Allen left Aldersgate on a question of faith--as in renting the space to muslims would be against God's laws--or because it was politically expedient?

Depending on how you answer the question, this could be not a question of his religion, but rather a question of his character.

Personally, I find it offensive when people use religion as "window-dressing" and Jesus did, too.

Btw, churches routinely rent or lend their space to small congregations of Christians as well--there is an Episcopal Church in Alexandria that allows a group of "disowned" Catholic gays use their church for CATHOLIC services--in in a PROTESTANT Church. If that isn't an example of God's love, I don't know what is.

And furthermore, thinking of Aldersgate, I am reminded of the old hymm, "they will know we are Christians by our love."

[Chubber]

The fact that Islam holds that Christ was a prophet is sufficient indication that Islam and Christianity are entirely incompatible. A prophet is one who is contacted by God to deliver a message. Christ was, and is, God, the living, fleshly incarnation of God's one true Word. In Islam, Christ's prophesy is superseded by God's revelation to Mohammed. It is a Christian heresy to add on to the revelation of God's Word provided through the Bible (which is one of the reasons Mormons are not considered Christians by Christian theologians despite holding many more similar creedal beliefs than Muslims). Heck, even the Episcopalians get this--they defrocked an Episcopal priest in Seattle who tried to claim she was both a Christian and Muslim.

[DCCyclone]

Hat tip to Spock for funniest comment in this thread.

Beyond that, merits of the church's policy and congregants' (including the Allens') responses aside, politically this is a non-issue with all but a very few voters. Ben is guilty of his typical hyperbole here.

I've learned to no longer take this blog seriously for information or insight, but for entertainment it's still great.

[Greer]

So, um, what did Allen decide to do by the way? Way to follow-up. Although I agree it's a non-story, I'm still interested to know if they are staying or going. And if anyone doesn't already think Allen is a bigot, oh well...

[Valley Indie]

Well, for people like Lainie and LAS (God is too big for one religion, everybody's faith is equal, there is no "truth," but rather only what is true for me, God is love, not judgment, blah blah blah), it's no surprise that leaving Aldersgate proves Allen is a bigot.

Any church that allows Muslims to use their facility for worship can only be run by faux Christians, who, as someone said above, use church as window dressing.

[Anon]

Allen stayed:

http://www.bvbl.net/index.php/2011/06/01/george-allens-support-of-islam/

So where's the "breaking news" in this? Unless it was a set up for the hard right to knock him down...

[Not Donald Trump]

"Rumor was Allen referred to African Americans and others of color as "brown people."

That's a filthy lie! Allen said no such thing!

He called them "third world types". Which is totally not racist or offensive in any way.

[change]

I often wonder why those “muslims” who lob off the heads of Christians because they don’t believe in allah; do not instead, offer to let them worship God in peace (much less offer up their mosques)

[Bubby Hussein, Hillbilly Sheikh]

I often wonder why those "christians" who lop off the lives of medical providers because they don't believe in...whatever, do not instead follow the directive of the savior to "love one another" (much less obey the Commandments).